April 17, 2011: I wrote this piece based on wolf taxonomy that had as many as 39 subspecies of gray wolves. I have interviewed many wolf experts and biologists since I published this article. I am still skeptical as to the timing of the scientific change in taxonomy classification. The ESA requires using the closest subspecies for reintroduction if the original subspecies is extinct. Was it just coincidence that gray wolf taxonomy was changed by the scientific community once questions were raised about using C. l. occidentalis for reintroduction? The real change in my view came when interviewing a couple of biologists who are considered anti-wolf. Each biologist was 100% confident that it didn’t make any difference what gray wolf was used for reintroduction. The size difference between C. l. occidentalis and C. l. irremotus was minimal with C. l. irremotus being only 10-15 lbs smaller on average. Wolf size is determined by their range, with northern wolves being larger. Wolf pack size is determined by the size of their main prey. There is some belief that C. l. irremotus and C. l. occidentalis were the same animal. The clear message was that regardless of where the reintroduced gray wolves were taken, average wolf size and pack size would become where we are now in a very short time. I am still solidly against ever introducing a non-native species into any ecosystem. Considering the extensive research I have done on this subject, I am no longer 100% convinced this article is factual. I will reserve stating it isn’t factual, only because science is not based on fact. Just consider that a few short years ago there were 39 subspecies of gray wolves. Now, there are 5. Science is theory and theory changes. I only hope this experiment doesn’t end in disaster because the one thing I am 100% certain is that science really doesn’t know how this will all work out. Wolf reintroduction is an experiment based on theory. Let’s hope in the end we have a balanced ecosystem where all wild species flourish.
How can a non-native species arrive on the Endanger Species List? It is a question many in Montana, Idaho and Wyoming are asking. The non-native species I am referring to is the wolf. Gray wolves have 24 subspecies in North America with distinctly different habitats, ranges, pack dynamics and behaviors.
The professionally sanctioned taxonomy of mammals is published by the American Society of Mammalogists and follows taxonomy in Mammal Species of the World used by the Smithsonian Institution’s National Museum of Natural History. The gray wolf taxonomy currently recognized by the American Society of Mammalogists continues to be based on Mech (1974), which identified 32
taxonomic subspecies of gray wolf worldwide, including 24 subspecies in North America. The current taxonomy identifies C. l. irremotus as the wolf subspecies that historically occupied the Northern Rocky Mountain area. The range of C. l. irremotus abutted the ranges of C. l. occidentalis and C. l. columbianus some distance north of the Canadian border, and it abutted the range of C. l. nubilus on the east. Under a strict interpretation of the current taxonomy, wolves that were introduced to Yellowstone National Park and central Idaho were from founder populations of C. l. occidentalis and C. l. columbianus.
Darwin’s theory of Natural Selection
As you can see from the preceding block quote, canis lupus irremotus is the subspecies of wolf native to Montana, Idaho and Wyoming. Canis lupus occidentalis and canis lupus columbianus are the subspecies that were introduced into the region. This might not seem an important distinction to some observers but man’s history of introducing non-native species into an ecosystem have been less than stellar, to say the least.
Montanan’s are well aware of the millions of dollars spent each year fighting noxious, non-native weeds. Not to mention the millions of dollars ridding our waters of non-native fish and efforts to restore native cutthroat trout populations. Yellowstone Lake along with it’s native cutthroat trout are being over taken by non-native lake trout which has a devastating effect on all the species in the ecosystem which feed on the cutthroat, including raptors and otters. The lake trout is a very deep water fish that is not available to these predators, while the cutthroat is a surface fish that provided food for these species before the Europeans ever stepped foot on this land.
Natural selection theorizes some individuals will survive and reproduce more successfully than others in their current environment thereby creating a population well adapted to their environment. Canis lupus occidentalis and canis lupus columbianus are adapted to ecosystems far to the north of the American Rocky Mountains. They are a much larger subspecies than canis lupus irremotus and they hunt in much larger packs. Canis lupus irremotus usually hunted in packs of two animals. Canis lupus occidentalis is the wolf of the Alaska tundra. It is a super sized, super hunter that hunts in very large packs following the caribou herds across thousands of miles. How could anyone in their right mind introduce canis lupus occidentalis (Mackenzie Valley Wolf) into the lower 48 states?
In the 1978, rangewide listing of the gray wolf, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service stated, “The Service, however, can offer the firmest assurance that it will continue to recognize valid biological subspecies for purposes of research and conservation programs.” The ESA [Sec. 3.(3)] defines “Conservation” as meaning, “… to use and the use of all methods and procedures which are necessary to bring any endangered species or threatened species to the point at which the measures provided pursuant to this Act are no longer necessary” (i.e., the species can be delisted). Additionally, National Park Service policy states, “The NPS will manage the natural resources of the national park system to maintain, rehabilitate, and perpetuate their inherent integrity. The NPS will strive to restore native species to parks whenever all the following criteria can be met: (1) Adequate habitat exists and a natural population can be self-perpetuating, (2) The species does not pose a serious threat to safety of park visitors, park resources, or persons or property outside park boundaries, (3) the species used in restoration most nearly approximates the extirpated subspecies or race, and (4) The species disappeared, or was substantially diminished, as a direct or indirect result of human-induced change to the species or the ecosystem”
American Society of Mammalogists criticised the project’s lack of deference to the principle of Bergmann’s rule, pointing out that the wolves used for the introduction were 30% larger than the original park wolves, and were adapted to much colder climates. Finally, the society questioned the legality under the ESA of “recovering” a taxon of wolf by expanding the historic range of a less similar type, when more closely related founder stock still remained available.
National Park Service Violates it’s Own Rules
As you can see, there were more closely related founder stock available for introduction. I won’t call it reintroduction because the evidence shows the wolves placed in Idaho and Yellowstone are not native and never occupied this region. Additionally, the American Society of Mammalogists questions the legality of the introduction of these super predators.
Conclusion
The federal government, with the full support of radical environmentalists, have introduced a foreign super predator into the ecosystem of the northern Rocky Mountains. They failed to recognize that the presence of man forced elk and deer off their natural range (valleys and praries) into mountain regions they didn’t occupy prior to the settlement of the valleys.
Elk numbers throughout areas now in the wolves range are declining rapidly. Calf recruitment is almost none existent in some areas. Ranchers are reporting severe declines in cattle calf recruitment where wolves are present. And there is zero reimbursement to ranchers for stillborn calves caused by wolves running cattle throughout the nights. Ungulate populations are in dangerously low in the West Fork of the Bitterroot which has one of the highest wolf populations in western Montana.
These are disturbing trends. They were predictable trends, though. Many biologists issued warnings prior to introduction. Now, we are left to face a growing mess that inevitably will cost millions of dollars to fix in the future. Not to mention the millions of dollars in lost revenue and lost jobs Montana, Idaho and Wyoming face with severely declining elk populations on public land.
Calling the introduction of wolves into the northern Rocky Mountains a success is as premature as President Bush declaring Mission Accomplished May 1, 2003 aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln. Hopefully, some day man will quit trying to play God and come to the realization we will never conquer nature. We must live within nature as do all living creatures. Unfortunately, we seem incapable of learning from past mistakes when it comes to introducing non-native species into ecosystems.
is the best book explaining the radical environmental movement and the effects on us all.
is must reading for anyone concerned about the direction America is currently headed.
{ 58 comments… read them below or add one }
Very well written Bob. It is time we start shoving back as our deer and elk herds are barely surviving in some area’s. This species was wrong from the beginning, as warned by professional wolf experts, and now is the time for it’s removal from the lower 48. It’s Illegal introduction and protections given under the ESA, where to say the least, underhanded and one of the lowest, terroristic, criminal events to happen to our wild lands in the history of conservation.
Save a elk herd this year, shoot 1 ‘Canadian’ wolf.
kdub63
Thanks for the kind words. You are right about elk herds barely surviving in some areas. The West Fork of the Bitterroot is one such area.
I understand some areas in Idaho are in bad shape, as well. Keep up the fight!
Thanks for stopping by.
Bob
PLEASE tell me you went to that meating at the court house today. i wish I could have gone, but I’m in North Dakota
I love how some people get on here and know so much more about this subject then the experts. Makes me laugh. Like some people further down this comments section. I know where you’re coming from Bob, the sad thing is I can even see what’s going on and I’m not even 30 yet. If anyone is a TRUE Montanian, like my father, grandfather, etc. they would see exactly what the wolves have done here. It doesn’t take a scientist to prove it, it only takes a gander on the same mountain where your family has been hunting elk for generations. You’ll notice how slim the pickin’s have become. It’s pretty stomach wrenching for us avid Elk hunters 
That is our means of food as well.
While I don’t know that it’s fair to blame “radical environmentalists” for the problem you’re right – introducing non-native species as part of a “restoration” effort is just plain stupid. I’d place the blame squarely on the bumbling of federal bureaucrats. This is one area where self-described radical environmentalists – who tend to be into deep ecology and pay very close attention to things like what is native to where – would be very much on your side.
SonomaOutfitters
I don’t know that I blamed “radical environmentalists”. If you read it that way, it wasn’t my intention.
I lay the blame on who you term the “bumbling federal bureaucrats”. The feds had the full support of the “radical environmentalists”, though.
I get your point that there are those who are self-described environmentalists who agree with my view. Many have documented their opposition to the introduction of this subspecies. I guess I don’t view all environmentalists as radical. I many ways, I am an environmentalist myself.
Thanks for sharing!
Perhaps you should take a look at actual Factual research on the reintroduction of wolves to the regions you state. Their reintroduction has actually proven to be aiding the the conservation of Elk and other wildlife populations by reducing the predation of coyotes which were directly responsible for 75% of fatalities of young among that wildlife prior to wolf reintroduction. Wolves prey on old, sick animals, obstensively leaving the young alone. They eat until full, leaving what remains for other predators, carrion, etc. which is also helping to revitalize these traumatized ecosystems of which HUMANS are directly responsible by deforestation, pollution, over hunting, poor eco management, etc. The Canis lupus occidentalis was introduced because at that time, the Canis lupus irremotus was NOT a verified sub-species. Hunters and Climate change have proven to be responsible for the highest decline in the Elk population, not the wolf.
Suzanne
I appreciate your opinion. I have looked at the Factual research and have spoken directly with many wildlife biologists on the issue. You can listen to one interview with a professional wildlife biologist on the Montana wolf issue in this podcast.
I don’t know where you got your information on coyote predation of young wildlife but coyotes are a non-issue in elk predation.
The greatest fallacy in your response is that wolves prey on old, sick animals leaving the young alone. This is simply a completely false statement. Wolves take down healthy bull elk in the prime of life. They also kill a substantial of elk calves. Wolves also kill for sport. They frequently kill large numbers of animals and eat nothing. This is part of the pack learning to hunt. Just last year a pack killed about 120 sheep in Montana in one night and ate none of them.
Canis lupus irremotus is a verified subspecies. There are some biologists that disagree with that wolves have any subspecies. Canis lupus irremotus is extinct, though, so there was no option to reintroduce the subspecies that is NATIVE to this area. Many biologists fought long and hard to use what they believed a closer representative to Canis lupus irremotus than Canis lupus occidentalis but they lost their argument. The fact is Canis lupus occidentalis is not NATIVE to this area and many highly qualified biologists warned against introducing Canis lupus occidentalis.
I will agree that Yellowstone National Park has benefited from the introduction. Much of the Park was severely over grazed by elk due to the lack of predation. Wolves have balanced the ecosystem. I also agree that other ecosystems have been traumatized (as you put it) by HUMANS. Trophy homes replace winter range. Elk have been driven onto the mountains because the valleys are full of people. Interestingly enough, we are seeing elk return to the valleys where there are high numbers of wolves as they try to escape the packs. I guess they feel safer among people than they do wolves. Ironically, we drove elk into the mountains and the wolves are driving them back to their original range.
Climate change has ZERO responsibility for the sudden decline in elk calf recruitment. Hunters are responsible for elk not being extinct. Hunters have protected millions of acres of winter range. And hunter dollars and donations are currently being used to fund a three year elk study in the Bitterroot National Forest, one of many examples of the GREATEST CONSERVATIONISTS IN AMERICAN HISTORY, the AMERICAN HUNTER.
The only variable that has changed since the dramatic, devastating decline of elk calf recruitment is the presence of wolves. In addition, elk calf recruitment is the same as it has been for decades where wolves are not present or are present in small numbers. The problem areas are where wolves are found in great numbers. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck…?
The sad FACT is by denying Montana the ability to manage wolves where there are problems, those pretending to defend wolves are actually promoting the position of radicals on the other side who want them exterminated. Montana has every intention of making sure wolves remain a vibrant part of the ecosystem but as the radicals on the other side keep using the courts to tie the hands of the biologists the movement to simply exterminate wolves grows. Organizations like Defenders of Wildlife USE wolves to increase donations, often using blatantly FALSE information to work on peoples emotions. Sadly their actions are harmful to the long term well being of wolves a permanent part of the ecosystem. Hey, their bank account is doing well, though.
In my opinion, the radicals on both sides are wrong and causing great harm. Wolves have a place in the ecosystem. The ecosystem is far different than it was when wolves roamed here prior to reintroduction and professional management is needed to protect elk from extinction in areas where man has had a great impact. In a perfect world, we would have healthy ecosystems like Yellowstone all over but that is unrealistic. In areas that aren’t as wild and untouched as Yellowstone, wolves need to be managed if they are to survive in the wild among humans. That is a FACT. And allowing Montana to manage wolves where needed will assure a home in the wild long term. Continuing to tie the hands of Montana through the courts will continue to grow the swelling feeling that this was a mistake and it is time to exterminate the wolves again. Unfortunately, a smooth transition to State management will cost the radical pro-wolf organizations millions of dollars in donations. Consequently, wolves remain in the headlines, elk numbers continue to crash in some areas and radicals on both sides of the issue continue to screw up what could be a truly great story of wildlife conservation.
The misinformation on this site is appalling. I really think you should sing up for a basic ecology course. Please read Claire Gowers semi recent publication called wolf effects across the
Greater Yellowstone Area. She is a wolf biologist with a PhD that has done extensive study on Yellowstone wolf relationship with Elk. First of all I think you meant Canis lupus nubilus not irremotus. When Lewis and Clark came through the country these wolves were killing Bison and Elk. Their is a reason they call them Buffalo Wolf. Also Canis lupus nubilus and Canis lupus occidentalis have routinely interbreed and crossed territories before European settlers so please don’t try to claim that occidentalis is a new species to the rocky mountain region. It is obvious that you are purposely spreading misinformation to gullible people for some agenda. I suspect you are new to Montana and are some sort of dude rancher that makes a living of of Montana tourists that don’t know any better. You really should educate yourself a little better about ecosystems and go back to Indiana or wherever you came from.
Wow I guess the professional full time paid Defenders of Wildlife liars have shown up over here. It is documented fact the wolves are slaughtering off the elk herd. It is not UFO’S Susie it is not hunters it not bears it is in fact wolves. Just like the true experts of the wolves told the corrupt USFWS what would happen if you bring in a invasive species south. You know the largest wolves in North America. That experts told the corrupt USFWS you people are crazy these wolves will wipe your elk herd. That is what happen. So you can stop with your lies bigfoot and the UFO’s didn’t steal the elk the wolves are wiping them out. It is documented fact and anyone that says different trying to protected their paycheck right Susie.
Perhaps you should take a look at who wrote the FACTUAL research you are speaking of. Wolves prey on healthy animals as well…they prey on pregnant cow elk, they rip the fetus right out of them as they are trying to flee for their lives. Have you ever watched how a pack of wolves kill an animal? It is horribly gruesome!!! They kill for sport at times….leaving the animal untouched or with very minimal eaten. I beg to differ on your post…the elk population was doing just fine until wolves were introduced!! Ask any person that likes to hunt or even go out and watch elk! Their populations have declined greatly!!!
Having done extensive research into the taxonomy of Wolves in general, perhaps you should do a little more yourself. Wolves migrated across the land bridge some thousands of years ago adapting to the climate changes the further south they went. Habitats extended far beyond ‘borders’ as they do not recognize them in the least. The subspecies mentioned have been interbreeding over the centuries as a result. This so-called ‘super predator’ is a North American species, that may have been more predominant in the Canadian regions, but ranges overlapped into the northern US as well. Man is the worst ‘super predator’ on the planet, destroying ecosystems without thought, destroying old growth forests, contaminating water supplies, and decimating entire species through trophy hunting which is wasteful, and appalling, so spare me the loss of ‘hunting’ related revenues, get a real hobby that doesn’t destroy nature for a whim. What you so conveniently omit in your article, is that the Yellowstone ecosystem has been brought back from the brink because of the reintroduction of the Wolves. Wolves are more humane than mankind will ever be. For them, family is everything, the unit itself is a model upon which we could do well to learn from. They are not the ‘big bad wolf’ of which fairy tales frighten children with. Look in the mirror and you will see just who is more frightening than wolves could ever be.
Wolves are the worst ecological disaster to hit our game herds in 100 years. It is documented fact pre wolves in Lolo zone 20,000 elk today 1700 elk the wolves slaughtered off 90% of the elk herd so you can stop your spin and lies. It is the hunters that save and paid for the elk herd not you evil wolf lovers. It is the hunters that paid for the land it is the hunters that paid for the game warden. Wolves do nothing but put people out of work. So if you hate Americans working for a living then and want to see them unemployed support wolves
I absolutely love how people like you know so much more then the experts on the subject that you’re wasting your time trying to prove wrong. Do you even live in Montana? I’m going to guess…NO! you would fall under the category my dad referred to as ‘bunny hugger’. just like the big wigs calling the shots for our Wilderness area. Not even from here, most have never even been here, but they know what’s best based on some scientific something or another that happened somewhere else. Somewhere down there, you mentioned Yellowstone and something about the beaver population…yeah, not sure what that has to do with the wolves…but hey, if you have to scrape BS information together to make a point, then YEAH, Save the Beavers!!!
Jason
There is no misinformation here. You say, “Also Canis lupus nubilus and Canis lupus occidentalis have routinely interbreed and crossed territories before European settlers so please don’t try to claim that occidentalis is a new species to the rocky mountain region.”
Talk about misinformation. Did the Native Americans with PhDs in wolf biology tell you this? Maybe some cross-breeding happened, maybe not but the FACT is Canis lupus occidentalis was not the predominate subspecies in this area
The fact is the wolf that was native to this region traveled in pairs, not packs and was significantly smaller than the wolf introduced. The fact is there were wildlife biologists who were part of the team advising the government that strongly disagreed with using the transplant stock that was chosen. The fact is wolf taxonomy is a topic in great debate even today.
Of course, you aren’t even close as to my profession or my time in Montana.
And I would suggest you educate yourself some more on the FACTS behind the wolf introduction.
Dragonz Fyre
Your history lesson is pure speculation as we had top notch wildlife biologists in the 18th century. Again, wolf taxonomy is a hotly debated subject, even today.
The Yellowstone ecosystem has been brought back from the brink of what? Yellowstone’s elk herd is down over 70% since wolf introduction. There are barely over 4000 elk left in the latest count. The biologists who warned against planting this subspecies predicted this was going to happen.
The government had a choice of which subspecies to use for introduction. The subspecies that was native is extinct so could not be used. Many top wildlife biologists were strongly opposed to the subspecies chosen. It is as simple as that and there is zero dispute that is what happened.
So many of you come here and talk like you wish mankind were extinct. And then try to blame the things you listed on me. Yopu don’t know me or how I live. I’d be willing to bet I have far less impact on the Earth than you do, though.
Again Bob, you need a lesson in basic ecology. Predators manage wildlife better than people do. You didn’t respond to my statement about Canis lupus nubilus. They were the predominant wolf in the lower 48 during the lewis and clark era and routinely interbred with the big bad Canis lupus occidentalis. Canis lupus nubilus will certainly travel in pairs as you state but they will certainly travel in packs when the times and hunting call for it such as a harsh winter. They didn’t kill buffalo in pairs unless it was a calf or a sick animal. It’s like comparing a lynx to a bobcat, you couldn’t tell the difference and they can interbreed. It is essentially the same animal. There are literally dozens of subspecies of wolves just in North America and they can all interbreed, kill elk and travel in packs. You obviously cannot see beyond your pocket book that relies on taking people that don’t know any better out to get an easy elk. hopefully those days are gone. The reintroduction of wolves has helped the park in many ways including bringing back the fur bearing beaver and making the trout fishing better since the willows along the stream are finally growing again. Pick up a book, and maybe get outdoors for real and observe it for yourself instead of playing the outdoor shtick your obviously peddling.
You are preaching a exposed lie wolves do not mangae eco system man does it is documented fact long before white man ever came to NA the Native Americans trapped hunted poison and denned wolves to control them. Believing in fairy tales that wolves are special and magically balance nature is immature at best.
Jason
If you had read the article: “American Society of Mammalogists and follows taxonomy in Mammal Species of the World used by the Smithsonian Institution’s National Museum of Natural History. The current taxonomy identifies C. l. irremotus as the wolf subspecies that historically occupied the Northern Rocky Mountain area. The range of C. l. irremotus abutted the ranges of C. l. occidentalis and C. l. columbianus some distance north of the Canadian border.”
So maybe you think American Society of Mammalogists and Mammal Species of the World need a basic ecology class. By all means contact them and let them know how you feel. And the feeling is C. l. occidentalis was always north of the Canadian border.
This was an INTRODUCTION of a non-native species and by your own accounts nature is better than man at managing ecosystems. I agree!!! Many biologists that were advising the government warned against introducing C. l. occidentalis. They felt there was a better choice. The bottom line is this is nothing more than an experiment where we have introduced a non-native species into an ecosystem and I have yet to see one of these type experiments succeed.
This article illustrated very well that any dope with an internet connection can publish something they know absolutely nothing about. Are you really trying to tell us that elk have never been exposed to predators in their history? They killed 188 wolves in Idaho between sept and march with an average weight of less than 100lbs according to Jon Rachael, state big game manager and wolf expert for the Idaho Department of Fish and Game. That should dispel the rumors that Idaho and Montana have extraordinarily large wolves. He also said one of the most frequent myths he heard was that the wolves released in Idaho in 1995 and 1996 were the wrong species for the area. “That’s just pure silliness,” You should save your tall tales for your grandchildren instead of clogging the issue with BS.
The Mich Tech Study documented and proved with science that the wolves were in fact wiping out the elk herd in Yellowstone. Documented fact in heavily wolf population the calves were slaughtered off at alarming rate 0 to 10 calves per 100 cow elk. That is full scale slaughtered. You just proved anyone with a keyboard can punch out fairy tale and think they are facts.
Jason
I’m not telling you anything, the American Society of Mammalogists is but you know more than they do. I love when you people come and show you’re complete ignorance and throw around personnel insults. Shows the type of trash you really are. Go ahead and keep believing the bought and paid for PhDs that sell their scientific integrity for a few dollars.
Once again, no tall tales from me. I am simply relaying the concerns of some very reputable biologists along with the preeminent organizations in the country.
Now, it is time for you to move along. I have had enough of your attacks on myself and my integrity. Thanks for showing the many readers of this site what you people are really about and made of. You only help the situation. Nothing I could write or say could possibly help the cause as much as the comments you have made. I am truly thankful!
canis lupus irremotus a medium-sized, light-colored wolf from the Rocky Mountains. Canis lupus irremotus males weigh between 70 and 120 pounds. Packs were generally pairs of animals.
canis lupus occidentalis a large wolf from Western Canada, also called the Mackenzie Valley Wolf. Mackenzie Valley Wolves typically stand about 32–36 inches at the shoulder and males weigh between 100 and 145 pounds. Pack sizes are generally 6–12 wolves, with some packs as large as 20–30. Territory size averages 600 square miles. The Mackenzie Valley Wolf has a specialized body that has made it one of the world’s most efficient hunters.
canis lupus nubilus the Great Plains or “buffalo” wolf, usually light in color. The Great Plains wolf, also known as the Buffalo wolf weighs from 60 to 110 pounds.
canis lupus occidentalis is a larger subspecies that travels and hunts in much larger packs and has evolved to travel huge distances to track it’s prey. This animal is NOT NATIVE to the US Rocky Mountains, PERIOD.
Bob,
Nice job handling the onslaught of wolf activism.
Rockholm
Thanks Scott.
The overpopulation of species, especially elk herds has been devastating to ecosystems throughout the Yellowstone Park region, so much so that they were on the verge of collapse prior to the reintroduction of the wolf population. Their numbers have been brought down to a manageable and sustainable level because the wolf reintroduction was successful. The elk are not even considered threatened, let alone endangered of being eradicated. Just as many scientists, biologists and ecologists refute the findings of the American Society of Mammalogists which you mention. I appreciate that as a hunter, the thought of having to actually travel further afield and the greater challenge faced by having to track elk over larger distances seems well, exhausting, but maybe that is a good thing. Because trophy hunters have never managed a sustainable elk population as you have also suggested. That is why their excessive numbers have damaged so many ecosystems to begin with. Man will never manage the environment better than the natural order of things. The wolf has been, and will always be the key predator to sound, sustainable management of ecosystems. Wolf populations are no where near the astronomical numbers you continue to imply. They are far outnumbered by other wildlife populations, and only through continued protections can they be brought and maintained at a sustainable level. We will agree to disagree. Wolves are not the boogeyman, that title will forever rest in the hands of man. It is our inability to safeguard our environment, and ensure its sustainability that is at fault, not the natural order of predator and prey. Wolves are integral to the ecosystem, whether you choose to accept it or not. So continue your crusade to return the ecosystems to their former state, and live with the consequences, because if the future you would envision comes to pass, you will hasten its collapse beyond any measures toward sustainability. A basic course in Ecology, and Environmental Science can be very helpful in understanding the implications of what you suggest. But don’t listen to me, after all The American Society of Mammalogists knows all, beyond infalibility. They are neither the authority or the rule when it comes to species, but one body in which, even many of them do not agree.
More fairy tale and lies. It is documented fact that wolves have slaughtered off the Yellowstone elk herd. The Northern Herd if you believe the corrupt liars at the park the Northern elk herd had 20,000 elk today down to 4564 that is 75% slaughtered of elk since hunting is not allowed in the park it was either wolves or UFO’s you choose. But people in the area say the true count is 2200 elk left meaning 90% of the elk herd is left. I would rather see elk then barren landscape void of animals. But wolf lovers hate wildlife and love to see it slaughtered off for the nothing.
Bob what you seeing is all the PAID liars spreading disinformation to cover the biggest wildlife disaster in America history. The invasive species called the Canadian grey wolf.
Amazing how you pick and choose your information without telling the whole truth. According to the National Park Service in conjunction with the Department of Fish, Wildlife, and Parks; US Forest Service; and US Geological Survey: “The annual aerial survey of the herd conducted during December 2010 resulted in a count of 4,635 elk, down 24 percent from the 6,070 reported the previous year. There has been about a 70 percent drop in the size of the northern elk herd from the 16,791 elk counted in 1995 and the start of wolf restoration to Yellowstone National Park.” They go on to state: “The number of grizzly bears seen on the northern range during elk calving season has decreased slightly in recent years. Also, the wolf population on the northern range inside Yellowstone National Park has dropped from 94 wolves in 2007 to 37 wolves in 2010. Biologists suspect predator numbers may be responding somewhat to the decline in the elk population. ” Further more: “Biologists expect the reduction in the number of wolves and the elimination of the late season hunt will result in some increase in the elk population.” As for their credentials: “The Working Group is comprised of resource managers and biologists from the Montana Fish, Wildlife, & Parks, National Park Service (Yellowstone National Park), U.S. Forest Service (Gallatin National Forest), and U.S. Geological Survey-Northern Rocky Mountain Science Center in Bozeman.” So now that the FACTS are quite a bit clearer, lets recap shall we– Elk herd population = 4635 (24% decrease), Wolf population = 37 (39% decrease). Nature balances out, but I’ll make it simple for you with basic economics: Supply and Demand; as the Elk herds are culled by predation, disease, trophy hunting (the most disgusting of all), and other environmental factors; the predator population like wolves and bears is culled proportionally as a natural bi-product. http://www.nps.gov/yell/parknews/11005.htm. The ecosystems in these regions are stabilizing, predator and prey populations are stabilizing into a natural rhythm too long absent. So yours is rather a lie by omission, and as to the ‘biggest wildlife disaster in American history,’ based upon lies by omission? The reality is that both the grizzly bear and wolf reintroductions have been successful, the facts of which can be verified by the sources I have named and the countless year round monitoring by environmental biologists, and ecologists within the regions.
Dragonz Fyre
There are always scientists on both sides of any issue. Unfortunately, some scientists are willing to sell their scientific integrity for a few dollars as well. The Smithsonian Institution listens to the American Society of Mammalogists, so that is what I referenced.
The thought of it being harder to hunt elk is the furthest thing from my mind. I am concerned for the future of our elk herd. The Bitterroot isn’t Yellowstone, far from it. The Bitterroot isn’t an intact ecosystem. As a hunter, I’ll agree with you on “Trophy Hunting”. Some of my hunting friends may shudder to see me write that but it disgusts me as well. “Horn Porn” will be the downfall of hunting if something isn’t done about it.
Read the 30 year study by Dr. Bergenrud on the woodland caribou. He has shown that poor habitat will support healthy ungulate populations but unchecked numbers of wolves threaten the very existence of the animals. He predicted the severe decline of elk in Yellowstone. He also states in his paper that it is possible to have healthy numbers of wolves and ungulates but the wolves must be managed.
It is time for the States to take over the management of the wolves. Molloy is making a mockery of the ESA. Wolves are in ZERO danger of becoming extinct. As I predicted, Defenders of Wildlife refusal to work with the states will increase the strength and resolve of those who wish to exterminate wolves. They are harming the wolves for the benefit of their pocketbook. They need to change their name to Defenders of Wolves because it is clear they don’t give a damn about elk. And they are purposely keeping this issue in the news because they are raking in donations. Now, you have the Governor of Montana essentially declaring war on wolves. Congratulations!!!
Bob;
Must add my heartfelt “Thanks” to the many others for this excellent article – wish I’d seen it earlier.
The following letter was written at the request of Dave Johnson, publisher of “Citizen” magazine but has never been published until yesterday (11/21/11) on Hank Carpenter’s site. Without question the most important revelation in it is the hard figures on what the pro-predator/anti-human misfits rake in from companies we all patronize along with the blackmail-like tactics they employ to do it, basically exchanging “green” endorsements for literally millions of dollars. Nice racket.
Thanks again; Keith
6/20/11 Follow the loot
A recently (2008) published book, “Green, Inc.”, by Christine MacDonald, unmasks a little discussed aspect of the wolf-related agonies being forced on residents of the Pacific Northwest. Rather than being just another rich, spoiled-brat treatise on the importance of a “green” lifestyle by an Al Gore clone, Ms. MacDonald’s book details the sources of the revenue stream that finances perpetual motion “green” lawsuits. A list of enviro-oriented organizations includes many that also sponsor/finance pro-wolf lawsuits, and since even wolf-loving lawyers run on money (lots and lots of money!) large corporations (think Wally World, et. al) are milked for contributions in exchange for a “green” endorsement from the “environmental” movement.
Ms. MacDonald’s documentation of the blatant hypocrisy of many of the “…nearly twelve thousand environmental groups in the United States alone.” (Page 12, Para. 3) reveals the real motivation behind the lawsuits, lawsuits that are financed through donations generated by the propaganda machines (non-profits, enviros, etc.) that distribute gorgeous pictures and emotional text about huge and beautiful (but supposedly harmless cousins on Fido’s and Fifi’s family tree) resulting in contributions exceeding a grand total of….according to Ms. MacDonald….1 TRILLION $ PER YEAR!!! (Page 15, Para. 2). That kind of money supports lifestyles approximating that of the Obama royal family. And man, does it ever buy access to the CEO’s of huge corporations that desperately crave “green” endorsements from these very same “environmentalist” organizations.
Needless to say, there’s plenty of bucks to hire fleets of lawyers too, whose endless lawsuits force people like us to live with a destructive, non-native, parasite-infested, invasive species that wouldn’t be tolerated for a heartbeat in the hallowed halls, homes, courtrooms, or back yards of either the so-called “environmentalist” groups nor their well-heeled sugar-daddies. As usual, it’s the money, Stupid!
Keith Lunders
Elk River, Idaho 83827
208-826-3219
Submitted to:
The Citizen magazine
P.O. Box 82
Grangeville, Idaho 83530
Dave Johnson
http://www.thecitizen8.org
email@thecitizen8.org
1-888-742-2763
The beauty of real science is, the truth always finds the minds that are willing to see it.
The Wildlife Scientist/Ecologist of today doesn’t give me much hope however. The North American Model for managing our consumptive use of ungulates, waterfowl, and fisheries, cannot be registered mentally by the agenda of the anti hunting Ecologists of today.Common sense wildlife management, bought and paid for by hunters, is gone forever. Our elk herds were our wildlife savings account, and these new era Ecologists squandered our surplus to feed their Wolf, a non native wolf to boot.
I am so disgusted, and I have absolutely no faith in our new age science. A literal generation of idiots is now managing our wildlife. The Ponzi scheme, known as wolf Management, is nothing more than a smoke screen to end hunting.The anti hunting Marxists have been hard at work to destroy hunting for many years, and once they pulled off their scam to introduce wolves, they became bold. They pushed for years to remove “you” the hunter out of the equation to manage big game. Now the day of Reckoning has finally arrived. The numbers do not lie, and their scam is exposed. Their BS/natural regulation has shown for what it is.
Rockholm
Scott, it is a sad situation. The main thing I was unaware of was these wolves were introduced over a few remaining NATIVE wolves. I was under the impression the native wolf was extinct. Introducing these Canadian Wolves over a remnant native population should bring a swift investigation. If true, this would have to be a major, criminal act against the ESA.
What is even more sad is the apparent apathy of the hunting community.
Great truthful article, Bob! I can tell you there was a NATIVE pack of wolves in the Dubois,WY area before the introduction. Everyone knew they were there but it was no big deal…..UNTIL the Canadians were introduced, the Lamar Valley pack killed them off and started on the livestock and pets in the Dunoir Valley! It’s amazing how much misinformation comes from the people who aren’t living the nightmare! I was surrounded by a pack North of Jackson, WY while hunting, 2 in front and 3 flanking me. They showed no fear of me what so ever as I yelled at them, luckily I was less than 100 yards from my rig, my dogs started barking, distracting them from their lunch retrieval (me), and I rotisseried back to the rig ready to shoot! I hunt to put meat on the table, Cows without Calves in tow, and use every bit I can get! I have a friend I give tendons and ligaments to and the bones go back in the trees to be picked at, just so Dragonz Fyre knows!
Wyoming Lead Cow
I have an uncle that has a cabin near Dubois. I am just learning of some remnant native wolves. I was under the impression they were extinct. It seems to me introducing these wolves over the top of some remaining native wolves should be investigated. I would think that is a criminal act. It is a damn shame if the native subspecies was driven to extinction by the introduction of the Canadian wolves. That is a story that needs to be told. I will be looking hard into this issue for the documentary film I am involved in, “Elk in Peril”. If you are interested take a look at the film website: http://elkinperil.com/
Thanks for stopping by and contributing,
Bob
Bob, thank you. This is an exceptionally interesting, and well-written forum, as well as being moderated in a professional manner. In re-reading it, your and Wyoming Lead Cow’s particular posts that indicate native wolf species may not be extinct, and that there seem to be surviving populations in certain areas, really caught my attention. The reason being, the WDFW here in Washington, has stated, on the record, that there are absolutely NO native wolves left in the state. In their own documents and statements, they have continuously reported as fact, that the state’s native wolves are unequivocally extinct. Period. However, sightings strongly suggest otherwise. Long before the introduction of the new, non-native Canadian wolves, which records point to all being released in the north central and north east parts of the state, within the last approximately ten years, there have been sightings of wolves in other parts of the state. Where did these wolves come from, if in fact they did not exist? The WDFW dismisses every single sighting as miss-identifications; either domestic dogs, or escaped hybrid pets. That seems to be a very easy and convenient answer. The sightings are just too numerous, and the witness just too reliable.
My brother-in-law watched a wolf, and it watched him, intently, for about 20 minutes, in the Little Naches area, which is just west of the dead center of the state, while hunting there over twenty years ago. Very far away from, and long before, the wolf packs were introduced into the Methow (very north central) part of the state. These two areas are well over 200 miles apart.
I saw a wolf over fifteen years ago, while driving home late one night in a snow storm. It was not a fleeting glimpse. I had to nearly stop the car, and it was directly in front of me, not more than twenty yards away, fully illuminated by my hi-beam headlights. This was in a non-populated area, and over five miles from any house. I was able to observe it for several seconds. I know what domestic dogs looks like, including Malamutes, Huskies, and so forth. I have had this type of dog as a pet. I know what a coyote looks like. I have seen many of them in my lifetime. This was a wolf, I am quite certain. This occurred over 150 miles from where these non-native wolves have been introduced, some eight to ten years later.
A friend of my wife’s watched a wolf from a mountain pass rest area, nearly 300 miles from where these wolves have been introduced. She was standing outside her vehicle, taking a break from driving. She said it did not appear afraid of her, and she thought it not menacing, and might be used to people. It seems more probable that she was alone, and so was the wolf, and it was sizing her up, calculating the difficulty of the kill. Had this been a pack of introduced Canadian wolves, would the outcome likely have been more traumatic for her? From what I have read, the answer is almost surely, “yes!”
These are all first-hand accounts. I have read of countless more. It defies logic that all these sightings can be dismissed as domestic dogs and escaped hybrid pets. What seems more likely, is that Washington has several small, surviving packs of native wolves. The sheer abundance of eye witness accounts would indicate that Washington’s native species of wolf are still here, across the entire north of the state, and centrally throughout the state, in the forests bordering the Cascade range. Wait a minute. These are also generally areas where Washington has lower human population, established elk herds, and a lack of tremendous pressure from modern firearm hunters. Perhaps a correlation? Are these packs now imminently threatened? Will our possibly few remaining native numbers be lost forever by the introduction of these larger, more aggressive, possibly healthier and more robust Canadian wolves? Oh, I should mention, the WDFW actually collars and tracks all these introduced wolves, and when it is apparent one is dead, they retrieve the animal and collar, and every couple dead wolves are replaced with new, healthy ones. Natural selection? HA! Hardly. If we actually do have any surviving numbers of a native species, our publicly-supported biologists may be essentially sealing these remaining wolves’ fate. They are nearly certainly engineering their final demise. Not to mention the decimation that is going to occur to the elk herds. It’s not just sad. It is an absolute outrage! I still cannot come to grips with the fact that we now live in a country where feel-good programs, and political correctness annihilate all semblance of fact and reason. What have we done to ourselves? The wolf issue is only a visible symptom of a much, much deeper social poisoning and corruption. Those responsible absolutely need to be held accountable.
Rockholm–I believe a distinction must be made about your generalization about ‘hunters’. There are ‘hunters’ that do so as a means of survival, by that I mean as a primary food source in which the game is not only consumed for personal use, but the rest of the animal is also put to personal use and not simply thrown away; which is part of ‘sustainable wildlife management’. The other, more predominant ‘hunters’ are simply trophy and sport hunters, whose objective is simply to kill something, lop off its body parts for display, maybe eat a few bits and pieces, and throw the rest away. This is the ‘hunting’ practice that needs to be eliminated, because it has never contributed to ‘sustainable wildlife management’. Man is as big of a predator as wolves, bears, and large cats, and the most wasteful. Man hunted to extinction the ‘indigenous’ wolves of these regions in N. America; so while the Canadian wolf ranges did overlap some areas of N. America, it was not ‘indigenous’, no one really disputes that. ‘Wolf management’ as you call it, would become ‘Wolf Slaughter’ if left up to reactionaries like you. You have no sense of what is sustainable ecosystem management based on predator/prey/ecology dynamics whatsoever. The YSP region is reaching sustainable balance, even with the few remaining 37 wolves present. The Bitterroot region is different, and must be approached with that in mind. However, based on the figures the Montana Fish, Wildlife & Parks Commission themselves offer for the Bitterroot, there are 980 elk in the West Fork; there are 24 wolves in the same area. The big ‘plan’ is to cull the wolves to 12; however, there isn’t a conscientious trophy/sport hunter alive who will stick to that plan to only allow 12 kills. There are only 4 breeding pairs in the Bitterroot region, with no way to protect them from the slaughter you suggest would be appropriate. A better plan would be to allow ONLY the Dept of Fish and Wildlife the authority to cull the wolves at all, NO HUNTING PERMITS at all. This way the suggestion that culling will sustain their population as well as the elks will not be an outright LIE. The breeding pairs would remain ALIVE to maintain a sustainable population. That is the ONLY palatable compromise as far as the survival of a species is concerned.
Reason must override Irrationality if there is to be any meaningful compromise toward sustainability of either species. Sport/Trophy Hunting is wasteful, it will never be a viable sustainable wildlife management tool.
It is always the “Zero Liability Participant” that jumps into the good hunter/bad hunter debate, and assumes they know of, or have known of practices that appall them.
I have been hunting my entire life. I have known only one hunter (Personally) that would be, in your eye’s, a bad hunter. Trophy hunting as you describe it, is as far from reality as one could get. I know many hunters, myself included, that like to see the biggest Bull Elk, or Deer and pursue these majestic animals for bragging rights. You cannot understand this, because all you know is the poorly published accounts, and agenda driven writings of inaccurate descriptions of our heritage.
Since you obviously have absolutely no knowledge of hunting, I will give you the remedial class here.
Hunting for a trophy animal began at the end of the 19th Century, as one way to promote wildlife conservation. You see, the older animals display the larger antler mass. This may appear to the non hunter as a walk in the park. These larger, more mature animals are very hard to harvest. Their instincts to survive are evident by their age, and thus through many years of breeding, give us superb offspring.
It is not your place to to judge, or criticize hunters on the basis of “your perception”. Hunters have a ethical code you could never understand. Zero Liability Participants usually use tactics like demoralizing hunters, and continually asserting unethical tactics, to advance your warped understanding of nature.Hunters-Sportsmen are the only reason we have viewable wildlife, and wildlife for all people to enjoy. Human consumption was, and is the driving force behind the North American Model.
The illegal introduction of the Canadian Gray Wolf has destroyed our Nations greatest Elk Herds, moose have plummeted, and now the deer are next. Historically, Wolf Introduction will be written about as one of the biggest failures in the Biological management of Wildlife. Natural selection will also be recorded as one of the biggest scams of our scientific communities.
Shall we continue?
Hubris is not a trait to aspire to. I come from a family who are sustainable hunters who do not agree with nor condone sport/trophy hunters. We use what we kill, meat, hide, sinew, fat, organs…need I go on. The establishment of the Nat’l Parks, wildlife preserves have done more than hunting can ever do. That is a reality. Sustainable hunting plays a small part but nature itself and preservation of all species big and small. There is a solution that doesn’t need a hunting license, because most hunters aren’t the shinning example of restraint and ecology mided as you. After all, you want the wolves to be kept at sustainable levels just like the elk, right? So be part of areasonable solution, not slaughter. Be the good hunter and give a damn about all species, not maintaininfg your bag limit.
Hubris? Are you really serious?
It is no wonder our Country is in the shape we are in, and exactly why our elk, moose, and deer are vanishing.You have proven to me, just like the hundreds of wolf promoters before you, you have absolutely no grasp of reality.You really need to read my previous posts again, because I will not waste my time with another drone that try to promote balance of Nature junk science.
Do you realize how many times I have heard a wolf promoter say “I am a hunter, or I come from a family of hunters”?It would blow your mind to know it has been tried, and failed hundreds of time before you.Just because you claim to come from a family of hunters, doesn’t give you validity in your failed argument.
Yellowstones elk herd overpopulated?
And who exactly made that determination? I am sorry but this is yet another issue where we must go back in time. How about we go back in time to the day the park was opened?
The Northern Yellowstone elk herd was estimated at 10-12 thousand elk at that time. So, was the park really over populated or is it just prime habitat capable of supporting large populations?
History shows us it is the latter, even before wolves were removed that population was always over 10,000, and the only time it dropped below 7,000 was due to some ‘scientist’ ‘thinking’ the habitat was over populated. The mass slaughter of elk that was done to ‘balance’ the habitat only resulted in a quickly recovered herd that grew to historic average levels.
If in fact the wolves are so great at creating any balance, the NYSEH wouldn’t be at it’s lowest population in history now would it? And the fact that it is continuing to decline only further exposes the fairytale of the natural regulation in an ecosystem where predator worship has created densities higher than at anytime in the last 12,000 years! Wake up and see what is happening right in front of your eyes! Will it honestly take all the elk being cleaned out of YS?
The declines have become so significant we now have ‘modern scientist’ attempting to blame global warming to cover their failed science. At what point do we just admit the truth and say, wrong wolf, wrong place and unmanaged it will destroy our ecosystems?
Seriously people, your modern, outcome based created science just doesn’t jive with historically known facts.
Hello again,
Wow Bob. You stirred up the ground hornets with a big stick didn’t you !!
That said,
I feel what Barry has said is where the rubber meets the road. “At what point do we just admit the truth and say, Wrong Wolf, Wrong Place and unmanaged it will destroy the ecosystems?”
They will have to admit it soon, or become liable for the outcome which is showing it’s ugly face more so every passing day.
Wolfaboo’s now have a huge reason to ‘cry’ over the spilling of their perverted milk. Gov. Brian Schweitzer’s announcement defying the Endangered Species Act and ordering Fish, Wildlife and Parks to kill entire wolf packs that are hunting elk and to stop investigating wolf killings.
Nothing could be more satisfying at this point in time. I have been fighting this disaster for over 10 years now, and this has been a long time coming, but this time, killing wolves has new meaning and fervor. Shoot away my fellow conservationists. It’s time we help our herds and the pressure of calving season is upon us. Saving our elk from this non-native predator has turned the corner and a timely removal of Canadian wolves is our primary concern.
kdub63
Yeah, I stirred it up real good. LOL Thanks for stopping by. Keep coming back!
Bob
Well, Jason…You stick out like a Sore thumb. You just can’t HELP but mention Weights and that is a regular poster child over at CLF.
Or better known as Carnivore Liberation Front.
Your easy to see buddy. Of course it’s easy to see those who are still hoping their Lies about Wolves will stick. Since the wolf issue has hit and is now acting like a Snowball headed for hell.
Enough Lies…As you can tell…I don’t have enough ROOM on here to name the groups that are NOW ANTI Wolf.
Just goes to prove, This was NEVER about the wolf. If it was Then you PRO WOLF should have stuck with the ORIGINAL DEAL of 10 packs + 5 as a buffer.
Billjo Beck
Yeah, Jason has the distinction of being the first and only person banned from this website. Maybe I should have let him go on because he was hurting his cause far more than he was helping. We really should give him a bunch of gratitude!
Best to you Billjo!
Bob
http://my.billingsgazette.com/post/BruceHemming/blog/they_are_killing_your_food_supply.html
Here is the real reason for the wolves.
Hunters only take the animals that the ecosystem can afford to have taken to mantain healthy herds. Wolves killing our native wildlife and other native predators is totally out of control. These wolves are destroying the wildlife in this country at an alarming rate. These wolves are way out of whack with the ecosystem. As stated before 300 wolves with a buffer of 150 is what science says is all that the native wildlife can handle in this country and still maintain their numbers. Wildlife bioliogist do counts on elk, deer, moose, antelope etc. in the spring every year to figure out how to set licence numbers for the next fall hunts. They figure out how many males and females of a speices can be taken to keep the herds healthy and in balance with their habitat. Hunters have been paying the bill with taxes on guns, ammunition, licences etc. now for over 100 years to manage the wildlife in this great country. One of the greatest succuss stories in this great nation. Don’t let a bunch of people destroy our native wildlife threw peoples emotions. Instead lets use the true bioliogist and science, and do what’s right and been working now for over 100 years. Yellowstone is a little different story there has never been any hunting allowed in the park. There where some big fires in Yellowstone in 1988. After the fires it created a lot more feed for the ungulate herds, and their numbers went up because of this. Canadian bioliogist told these people and our government that if you could high fence Yellowstone National Park so that none of the wildelife could get in or out of the park, and introduce the Canadian wolf. That the Canadian wolves would kill off every prey animal and all other pretators within Yellowstone and eventually kill themselfs off. You see Yellowstone would be a dead park with no wildlife at all left in Yellowstone Park. So see this notion that these wolves only kill the weak and sick is only one of the lies we are hearing from these pro-wolf people. These people try to make it sound like taking a wolf to save other wildlife is wrong This has to be done to keep things in balance. This is what has to happen or someday we will not have any of the native wildlife that we all love to see in this country. God put the wildlife on this planet for us as a natural resource to hunt for as food like has been done for millions of years now, not to be destroyed with a bunch of propaganda, lies, and politics. We must learn not to trust the wolf people and do the research to figure out what this whole wolf thing is really all about. Then makeup our own minds who’s in this whole thing just for the money. The sportsmen in this country (The true conservationist in this country) are paying the bills to manage the wildlife and save habitat for wildlife in this country. The pro-wolf people are stealing from every American in this country in one way or another, by destroying our wildlife for the money. A true animal lover respects all wildlife not pick and choose. By condemning our native wildlife to death by a non-native wolf that is out of control and should have never been brought into the United States is just plain wrong. Yes this is not the same wolf that lives here. Much larger yes. The biggest difference is in the pack size and the way that they kill as they call it sport kill. That means kill without eating what they have just killed and move on to kill again sometimes repeating over and over again. One example of this happened on Sept.7,2009 near Dillion Montana 122 buck sheep killed in one night by Canadian wolves. None of them eaten by the Canadian wolves that had just killed every single one of the sheep that night. Google it. The Canadian wolf is the most prolific, destructive predator on the face of our planet. Yes there may be a place for wolves in the ecosystem, but they have to be keeped in balance with the habitat or those of us living on this planet now are going to witness the biggest wildlife desaster in the history of this nation. Some of us already have. The wildlife in this country do not have much range left today compared to the days before we all got here. This is why our native wildlife can’t excape the constant harassment from these Canadian wolves. They are on them 24-7, 365 days a year. The elk are so stressed by the Canadian wolves that they are even aborting their calves in some areas. In other areas the Canadian wolves are pulling the cow elk down and killing the calfs before they are born to take their first breath of air, with the cow left to bleed to death that sometimes takes 2 to 3 days. In some cases neither the calf and almost every time the cow elk is not eaten. Some balance in nature. This is just plain wrong. The native wildlife in this country is going to hell and Defenders Of Wildlife is driving the bus
This one was told before this huge wildlife desaster ever got started. ( “I predict that you are going to have major impacts from wolves in this state…I predict major elk decline…wolves repeatedly depress moose, caribou and elk populations while studying them throughout Canada…I’ve watched herd after herd [of caribou] go EXTINCT across Canada…The problem, wolves have no know predators to keep them in balance with the ecosystem.”)
—— Tom Bergerud, 1994
Top British Columbia wolf expert
This is form a real wolf EXPERT!(”Wolves took over and became the leading cause of Lolo elk deaths. It wasn’t until May of last year that the state could finally manage wolves. By then, the balance of elk and wolves in the Lolo Zone was completely out of whack. Extreme predation on adult females and calves means not enough calves survive to replace the adults that die each year.”)
—Cal Groen, 2010
Director
Idaho Department of Fish and Game
Hunters ( Sportsmen The Only True Conservatinonist In This Country) only take the animals that the ecosystem can afford to have taken to mantain healthy herds. Wolves that are killing our native wildlife and other native predators is totally out of control. These wolves are destroying the wildlife in this country at an alarming rate these days. These wolves are way out of whack with the ecosystem. As stated before 300 wolves with a buffer of 150 is what science says is all that the native wildlife can handle in this country and still maintain their numbers. Wildlife bioliogist do counts on elk, deer, moose, antelope etc. in the spring every year to figure out how to set licence numbers for the next fall hunts. They figure out how many males and females of each speices can be taken to keep the herds healthy and in balance with their habitat. Hunters( The True Conservationist) have been paying the bill with the taxes on guns, ammunition, licences etc. now for over 100 years to manage the wildlife in this great country. One Of The Greatest Succuss Stories in this great nation. Don’t let a bunch of pro-wolf people destroy our native wildlife threw peoples emotions. Instead lets use the true bioliogist and science, and do what’s right and that has been working now for over 100 years. Yellowstone is a little different story there has never been any hunting allowed in the park. There where some big fires in Yellowstone in 1988. After the fires it created a lot more feed for the ungulate herds, and their numbers grew because of that. Canadian bioliogist told these pro-wolf people and our government that if you could high fence Yellowstone National Park so that none of the wildelife could get in or out of the park, then introduce the Canadian wolf into Yellowstone Park. That the Canadian wolves would kill off every prey animal and all other native pretators within Yellowstone Park and eventually kill themselfs off. You see thenYellowstone Park would be a dead park with no wildlife at all left in Yellowstone Park. So see this notion that these wolves only kill the weak and sick is only one of the lies we are hearing from these pro-wolf people. These people try to make it sound like taking a wolf to save other wildlife is wrong. It has to be done to keep things in balance. This is what has to happen or someday we will not have any of the native wildlife that we all love to see in this country. God put the wildlife on this planet for us as a natural resource to hunt for as food like has been done now for over millions of years. Not to be destroyed with a bunch of propaganda, lies, and politics. We must learn not to trust the wolf people and do the research to figure out what this whole wolf thing is really all about. Then makeup our own minds who’s in this whole thing just for the money. The sportsmen in this country are paying the bills to manage the wildlife and save habitat for wildlife in this country. The pro-wolf people are stealing from every American in this country in one way or another, by destroying our wildlife for the money. A true animal lover respects all wildlife. By condemning our native wildlife to death by a non-native wolf that is out of control and should not have never been brought into the United States is just plain wrong. Yes this is not the same wolf that lives here. Much larger yes. The biggest difference is in the pack size and the way that they kill as they call it sport kill. That means kill without eating what they have just killed and move on to kill again sometimes repeating this over and over again. One example of this happened on Sept.7,2009 near Dillon Montana, 122 buck sheep killed in one night. None of them eaten by the Canadian wolves that had just killed every single one of them that night. Google it. The Canadian wolf is the most prolific, destructive predator on the face of our planet. Yes there may be a place for wolves in the ecosystem, but they have to be keeped in balance with the habitat or those of us living on this planet now are going to witness the biggest wildlife desaster in the history of this nation. Some of us already have. The wildlife in this country do not have much range left today compared to the days before we all got here. This is why our native wildlife can’t excape the constant harassment from these Canadian wolves. They are on them 24-7, 365 days a year. The elk are so stressed by the Canadian wolves that they are even aborting their calves in some areas. In other areas the Canadian wolves are pulling the cow elk down and (aborting) killing the calfs before they are born and ever take their first breath of air, with the cow left to bleed to death that sometimes takes 2 to 3 days. In some cases neither the calf and almost every time the cow elk is not eaten. Some balance in nature. This is just plain wrong. The native wildlife in this country is going to hell and Defenders Of Wildlife is driving the bus
This one was told before this huge wildlife desaster ever got started.( “I predict that you are going to have major impacts from wolves in this state…I predict major elk decline…wolves repeatedly depress moose, caribou and elk populations while studying them throughout Canada…I’ve watched herd after herd [of caribou] go EXTINCT across Canada…The problem, wolves have no know predators to keep them in balance with the ecosystem.”)
—— Tom Bergerud, 1994
Top British Columbia wolf expert
Great post Ken the wolves are the problem. The liars in chief from the USFWS have covered up and lied to the public about wolves long enough. It high time hunters stop playing the stupid games that it is not the wolves. It is called predator control. Enough of the this immature childish fairy tale land of nature is perfect without man. That myths has now been exposed as a fraud. Time all hunters that care to stand up to this tiny fringe group of proefession cry babies they only care about their huge 6 figure salaries crying about wolves. These people don’t care about wildlife all they care about is there own greed and selfish bank accounts. Check out the new film Yellowstone is Dead. BTW not to mention all the traitors and bunny huggers working in the MT Fish Wolves and Parks. Nothing but cover up artist for the wolves. Full of anti hunters traitors is too good a word for these people.
Here a thought. A co-worker and I where talking today about what kind of people could still be in favor of these Canadian wolves after all the destruction they have inflicted on the native wildlife in our country. And we figured it out. Pedophiles sometimes use fuzzy little puppies to lure there victums in close enough to take advantage of them too.
Specifically addressing Sonoma Outfitters’ comment, I have to disagree. The information coming out shows that the so-called “radical environmentalist” would not side with BitterootBob. I live in Washington state, and we are now fighting the same battles that the other northwest states have been engaged in for quite some time. Our own Washington State Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW) has introduced Canada wolves into the state, despite abject denial of such activities for a number of years. Regardless of exactly where the money comes from, tax payer dollars have been spent, covertly, in the introduction of a non-native wolf species to the state, despite evidence that it may potentially be disastrous, and despite widespread concerns from state residents. What were at first rumors, seem to be satisfactory substantiated, that the WDFW has been running this program in conjunction with, and direct interaction and support of, the Sierra Club. I don’t know if I would term the Sierra Club as radical environmentalists, but they are certainly hard-core. For all practical purposes, to name names, the Sierra Club is exactly the type of group that is being referred to as “radical environmentalists” here. The point being, this environmental group not only supported, but directly worked with, the WDFW on non-native species wolf introduction into the state. Getting large, breeding, growing wolf packs thriving in the state, serves their agenda, and apparently, whether the species was the correct species, was of little concern to them. We now have very large, very aggressive, breeding, growing packs of non-native wolves in our state (some literally across the valley from my home,) and it is still very illegal to shoot one here. The WDFW is so gleefully thrilled with the success of this program that one almost senses that some of their biologists are on the verge of defecating themselves when they report of the ever-increasing number of wolves, and new locations where viable packs have appeared. I, for one, believe the WDFW has made a dreadful, predictable mistake. They have opened Pandora’s box. And, these environmental groups, that should have seriously questioned the intelligence of such introduction, have instead plunged blindly and headlong, along with the WDFW, into this program; both supporting each other from the very beginning. Almost as though there were collusion. I’ll leave each to their own opinion. But, I imagine you know where I stand.
Bassman
It is seriously unfortunate that both Washington and Oregon have failed to learn any lessons from Idaho, Montana and Wyoming. We have been through 16 years of this destructive program and we now find ourselves at the breaking point.
WDFW, like MFW&P and IDFG, are making huge mistakes that will one day come back home to roost. Those biologists from IDFG that spent years finding any excuse they could to exonerate wolves as the cause of our new problems, are now worried about keeping their jobs. The hunters of Idaho want some accountability for the obvious destruction of our game herds by wolves.
You see, you can not hide the truth forever, even behind the cloak of ‘science’, and eventually the people who pay their salaries will shut off the money. IDFG has approximately 7 million dollars in unsold nonresident tags and licenses this year and who knows how many residents they have lost. But the result is, empty coffers. They have become the victims of their own fraud and they are not liking the demands of hunters one bit. But the truth is, until they remove the people who perpetuated this problem from the payroll, the hunters and their dollars will not return.
You should listen to these people now. It seems their attitude of wolves has changed. They cringe at the mere mention of the word wolves and the last thing they want to talk about is their old studies and gleeful attitudes toward wolves. The truth has been exposed and the truth does not lay on the side of the faux science these departments put out for the last decade. Now that their careers are on the line, I think most now wish wolves would have never been dumped on Idaho.
I watch with horror that WA. and OR learned nothing from our disaster. Will Colorado do the same? Are they ALL incapable of seeing the results we have had here? Did Idaho and Montana go through this destruction for no reason at all? Have we exposed this fraud to no avail? It will be heartbreaking if, in fact, that ends up being the case.
My best recommendation for now is to take names, gather their data, record their glee and then when the day comes they can no longer hide the truth, hold them accountable for it. Gather the past data from Idaho, and show how it is exactly the same lies they are now pushing, then gather the current data where they are trying to get out from under the past lies. Make it perfectly clear to them that you are watching, gathering, and one day you will return for your retribution and expose them for what they are.
Don’t know where this has been hiding but have to state that this is the most complete and accurate evaluation of the wolf situation I’ve yet seen.
That C. L. Irremotus still existed in Idaho prior to introduction of C.L. Occidentalis has been thoroughly documented by Idaho Fish and Game in a study that lasted from 1985 to 1994, in which over 80 sightings were investigated of a much smaller wolf sub-species that was very shy and reclusive, I believe quite possibly because of the demise via heavy metal poisoning (shooting) of those carrying “brave and bold” genes long ago at the hands of early settlers. I also believe that C.L. Irremotus is probably extinct today and can never be recovered DUE TO THE INTRODUCTION OF C.L. OCCIDENTALIS.
Besides the near complete destruction of the once plentiful deer and elk herds, the really frustrating aspect of this monumental ecological blunder is that its perpetrators either have already or someday will retire on cushy pensions without ever being held accountable for their deliberate destruction of a valuable resource, the disastrous makeover of an entire ecosystem, the massive misappropriation and outright theft of Pittman/Robinson funds (well documented and bravely exposed by Mr. Jim Beers, former USF&W biologist, supervisor, etc.) , and the deliberate lies and arrogance typified by Mr. Ed Bangs in-your-face attitude of “Wolves are here to stay, live with it”. Only until the crosshairs in my scope center on a wolf where there should be an elk, Mr. Bangs.
When I received the link to this web site there was a photo with it of 24 wolves in Lolo Pass. The caption said that “Bobbys friend Rusty Latrays Brother” took the photo from a plane. I have been getting alot of phony stuff about wolves, and I suspect this photo is a phony – can any one verify that this photo is real??
Brad seymour
You’ll have to be more specific on which photo you are referencing. I do not use photos I believe are phony or have been Photoshopped. I have many photos of huge wolves that have been altered and none have been used on this website. If you are referring to the photo of a string of wolves in a large pack (might be 24, I haven’t counted), I received that by email and I have looked it over in Photoshop. There is no evidence that photo has been retouched or added to in any manner. When you blow them up to 800X the original, it is pretty easy to look at the pixels and see if it has been doctored. This photo has not been, IMO. That is the best I can tell you.
Bob
Thanks for the comment Bob. I am increasingly frustrated with the volumn of erroneous e-mails I get about wolves and am getting pretty cranky about it. Apparently some people are willing to “bend” the truth to try to advance their agenda. For example; These guys are telling us that “by God” we better stand guard with a rifle all nite when camping to fend off attacking packs of wolves. (I believe there has been only one substantiated wolf kill on humans in North America – all time) And, those photos of the giant wolves that have been going around are ridiculous. This is why I am prone to be skeptical of the 24 wolves all in one string crossing Lolo Pass. – It still seems unlikely to me.
I am all for the fight against wolves but we must keep it honest and true or we have lost our credibility and sound foolish or ignorant.
The photo you are referring to is accurate, although taken in Canada, not Idaho.
I find it interesting that you question the number of wolves……there is a pack in Yellowstone that I believe has 17 verified members of larger than average wolves that have developed a specialty in killing bison.
There was also a pack outside Jackson Hole a few years ago with 22 wolves in it.
As far as the pictures goes…..there are some really big wolves out there. A 130 pounder, which are turning out not be all that uncommon, is one big elk eating beast.
Another point to be made. Although there have only been two humans killed by wolves in NA in the last ten years, there have been many wolf encounters that many knowledgeable biologists attribute to prey testing. Just another step closer to more attacks.
In recent weeks there have been several wolf incidents where they are coming into peoples yards and killing pets, once they get that close to peoples property, there will be no good outcome.
I agree with you on the point of the mislabeled pictures, it makes me crazy too. We have enough solid evidence and factual information to make our case without confusing information. But then again, I would not put it past pro wolfers in potentially creating that disclaimer by doing the mislabeling themselves. I always stress to the people I work with to keep it accurate and make no comments they can not validate.
Barry, you stated that the photo is accurate, altho taken in Canada? Does that not make it inaccurate, as was my point? I have contacted the Idaho F&G and 1 wolf around 130 pounds has been taken in each hunt. However the next largest wolf in each hunt has been around 110 pounds. The average wolf taken is less than 100 pounds. I guess your statement that 130 pound wolves are not all that uncommon may apply to other states, but not Idaho.
Brad
Your attempt to play the minutia is a feeble attempt at displacing reality. You made a statement pertaing to the number of wolves in packs, which is another wolf lie being exposed, there are plenty of pack that exceed a dozen wolves, which was exactly my point, that pack of wolves in Canada exceeds 20 wolves, there are packs in Idaho, Montana and Wyoming that all exceed the claim nice little family unit the emotional would want us to believe.
You are also seriously behind the times as far as wolf weights. There were two wolves in N. Idaho alone the week I posted that comment that went 127 and 131, as well as several others.
One little point of deception IDFG likes ot play in their ‘average’ weight of wolves is the fact that many of the weights factored into their average were dressed and/or skinned wolves. Not to hard to kill an average that way.
Just as Idaho has far more than the claimed 750 wolves, they also have their share of 125#+ wolves. IDFG just isn’t that reliable of a source for information, what they do have is old, and most of it is intentionally skewed through manufactured computer models, ironically rewritten just before the wolf introduction. I am not going to hold my breath, and I would suggest you don’t either……but you are going to see some serious personnel in IDFG in the next few years.
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